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Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 08:31 AM
On sunday we were covering an equestrian event (our first) and using a canon 5d set to adobe rgb. i had set the sharpening , contrast ,saturation,in camera under user defined.
Test photos had come out reasonably ok previous weeks using our DNP d40 printer.
I had a friend helping with his nikon camera also.
We were printing ok when several photos started to come out vastly over saturated.
We were turning the saturation down in picassa,but not getting what we saw on the screen like we had previously so we were guessing and wasting a fair amount of media in the process.
The screen in not calibrated but had been ok up until then ,we have tried a few more at home but are still having the same problem on a fair few photos.
Any ideas?

Peter Martin-Turner
11-05-2010, 08:41 AM
Were the results the same from both cameras?

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 08:49 AM
It appears that we were getting oversaturated photos from both cameras which made me think it was laptop or printer.

RobMarsh
11-05-2010, 08:51 AM
To clarify, your screen is calibrated or not?
and have you had a printer profile done?

To be honest, with a none calibrated screen, you have little or no consistency to the printer. I use a spyder system every 4 weeks on my system to keep it calibrated, at least I know that the screen colours as you see them are right, and because my printer is profiled, I know what comes out is right

simon coates
11-05-2010, 08:57 AM
I think that screen calibration is largely irrelevant, unless you are making colour corrections on screen prior to printing. For me, what is important is that what I shoot is reproduced faithfully by the printer.

Simon

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 09:03 AM
Screen is not calibrated but photos had been fine previously.
we were adding and subtracting saturation sometimes on the screen but what came out of the printer bore no resemblance for some photos,whereas others were fine.

Andy Starkey
11-05-2010, 09:32 AM
Jason,

are you sure it's not camera related, i find the default settings on the nikon bodies used by guys who work for me have a high saturation and I have to get them to wind it down a bit.

Have you done a test since the weekend under 'non-sales' conditions?

Regards

Andy

Mark Amies
11-05-2010, 09:35 AM
Jason

When you are in your normally set up ,are you inside , with artifical light?. In otherwords, if you were in a strong natural light when doing the equestrain job you may be 'fighting the light' , and over compensating when adjusting the images.

Used to happen to me all the time in my old job, then we moved the digital production dept down to a room tht had all natural light blanked off and constant light level settings on the ligthing in the room.

Of course I could have just offended you there, so if I have, I am sorry. ;-)

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 09:44 AM
We were outside and light hitting the screen did cause difficulties so we made a makeshift box to block out the light , and we were inside a gazebo, but this cant be the problem as we have printed some more off at home under perfect conditions and they too are showing the vast oversaturation even though looking great on screen.
We are planning to get a better monitor or laptop screen anyway maybe this week, but we still need to figure out why the oversaturation .

Peter Martin-Turner
11-05-2010, 09:46 AM
PM7_7257.JPG

Just printed this out for a customer order online. Saturday was fairly overcast, this was shot with a D700/ Sigma 70-200 with the DX crop mode on. All processing has been in Picasa, none of my screens are currently calibrated. Typically the pictures will get an I'm feeling lucky applied and use the default Olmec OP1000 icc profile. I set my prints to fine mode, the colour matching to the default ICC profile and the unsharp mask to 25%. We are using the Shinko media and I see consistent results across all 4 printers that I have.

I find the colours sharp and vibrant, customer response is always favourable and Picasa does the job very well. It gets more complicated when networked but for a simple setup such as you describe, I would say ideal as a starting point.

Just another thought, I do find the skin tones oversaturated if I use the Vivid setting on any of the Nikons I have ( D200/D700 and D3) so we stick with the standard or SD colour setting in camera.

Peter Martin-Turner
11-05-2010, 09:52 AM
Handy thing about Picasa is that you can always revert to the original. Have you tried to print any of the original images (without any edits) as they came out of the camera?

Duncan Harris
11-05-2010, 09:59 AM
As Simon says if you don't make any adjustments to the image then screen is out of the equation. I have a few test images (my own and downloads from digiteldog.net and photobox) that I have printed out on each printer with no adjustments so if I get a problem such as yours I can print them again and compare, if they are the same then it's camera/lighting conditions if not it's probably either the software, printer or profiles.

May be worth downloading a couple and see what results you get.

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 10:38 AM
Just printed an unedited photo and it seems to be the greens that are the problem looking almost flourescent.
rest of colours not bad blue seems a bit purple, whites blown out a bit but face colours not bad.
going to put settings in camera to standard or neutral and try see what i get.

john wright
11-05-2010, 12:15 PM
Set the camera to sRGB not Adobe RGB.

There is a misconception that Adobe RGB is better (is a broader gamut, a wider colour space). Adobe RGB is a good choice if your work flow is colour managed and if your primary output is to print ie. magazine.

For most (think in terms of 99% - a figure plucked out of the air to emphasise what I am saying before anyone starts nit picking about statistics) photographers the sRGB colour space is more than adequate. It is supported by most standard monitors and printers (with some colour space limitations) and is the default web standard.

For event photography using a colour managed sRGB work flow will be more than adequate and will minimise issues with printing and displaying on the web.

If you do a couple of quick tests and shoot a colour chart or a cereal box with a wide range of colours in both sRGB and Adobe RGB and then view and print them you should see a significant difference. To really see the difference on screen view them in an older web browser.

John

andycampbell
11-05-2010, 12:23 PM
There is an issue with Picassa that i found where it loses print settings regardless of what profile you have selected in printer properties.
You need to go to print set up within picassa and more than likely the table or profile has deselcted for what ever reason, I had this with my 9800 and it happneded again when i had a loan 9550 last week, a quick tick in the table box puts everything back correctly
regards
Andy

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 03:59 PM
There is an issue with Picassa that i found where it loses print settings regardless of what profile you have selected in printer properties.
You need to go to print set up within picassa and more than likely the table or profile has deselcted for what ever reason, I had this with my 9800 and it happneded again when i had a loan 9550 last week, a quick tick in the table box puts everything back correctly
regards
Andy


Hi Andy,
It sounds like this is worth a try....I can't find print set up within Picassa, could antone tell me where it is?

andycampbell
11-05-2010, 04:03 PM
Jason
in Picassa
file
print
3rd button down on left is printer set up

click that and check the options tab and colour adjust tabs, it may be something in there that has either been checked/unchecked that is causing the issue

hope that helps
Andy

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 04:09 PM
Jason
in Picassa
file
print
3rd button down on left is printer set up

click that and check the options tab and colour adjust tabs, it may be something in there that has either been checked/unchecked that is causing the issue

hope that helps
Andy


Cheers Andy,
The problem is that I don't know what it should read, you couldn't give me a quick ring could you? 0114 2483973.
No problem if not.

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 04:31 PM
Jason
in Picassa
file
print
3rd button down on left is printer set up

click that and check the options tab and colour adjust tabs, it may be something in there that has either been checked/unchecked that is causing the issue

hope that helps
Andy


Cheers Andy,
The problem is that I don't know what it should read, you couldn't give me a quick ring
could you? 0114 2483973.
No problem if not.


Hi Andy,
That didn't work but thank you ever so much for ringing.
Sue

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 05:21 PM
Were the results the same from both cameras?

Yes they were.

Peter Martin-Turner
11-05-2010, 06:59 PM
Sounds like the printer is the issue then. I should go back to your retailer and seek their assistance.

Perhaps there is a more serious issue with the print head.

Did you have generator problems as well? Could a fluctuation in current or sudden power outage have coincided with these issues?


Hi guys,
We did our first event on Sunday, was going ok, then our Kippor genny, which we had owned for a week decided to not work!!!!
Anyway, I have made some phone calls and I have been told by Maplins that I could buy a battery, 150, and an inverter, 140, and charger, 20. This would run my equipment for about 10 hours, (currently only have a laptop and printer). If this is the case, why did I buy a generator for 475, the battery seems much easier and cheaper.....am I missing something???

Jason Goodlad
11-05-2010, 08:18 PM
Sounds like the printer is the issue then. I should go back to your retailer and seek their assistance.

Perhaps there is a more serious issue with the print head.

Did you have generator problems as well? Could a fluctuation in current or sudden power outage have coincided with these issues?

No because I turned off the computer so I could fill the generator with petrol, then the genny wouldn't start back up. The supplier of the genny replaced it.

Hi guys,
We did our first event on Sunday, was going ok, then our Kippor genny, which we had owned for a week decided to not work!!!!
Anyway, I have made some phone calls and I have been told by Maplins that I could buy a battery, 150, and an inverter, 140, and charger, 20. This would run my equipment for about 10 hours, (currently only have a laptop and printer). If this is the case, why did I buy a generator for 475, the battery seems much easier and cheaper.....am I
missing something???

Jason Goodlad
12-05-2010, 05:43 PM
Update on the saturation problem,

Well it still isn't solved, I am using Picasa and have printed the same picture from the same laptop through Lightroom, the same saturated picture. I then printed the same picture through different printer and the same saturated picture was produced, so I think we can rule out a problem with the printer. Not all the pictures come out wwrong, although they all look fine on the laptop screen. I am going to uninstall Picassa and reinstall it and I will keep you all updated!
Thanks for all your help though.

Stuart Morley
12-05-2010, 06:02 PM
I think that screen calibration is largely irrelevant, unless you are making colour corrections on screen prior to printing. For me, what is important is that what I shoot is reproduced faithfully by the printer.

Simon

Spot on Simon. Couldn't agree more....

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)

Stuart Morley
12-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Did you have generator problems as well? Could a fluctuation in current or sudden power outage have coincided with these issues?



I had a problem once where a customer had issues with print quality and after trying everything the customer said..."It works find in the office...." humm.....

Turns out it was a generator issue....

Might be worth looking there as peter says....

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)

john wright
12-05-2010, 09:01 PM
I still think the problem is a colour management issue. Humour me here and take an image with the camera set to sRGB and then take the same image with the camera set to Adobe RGB. Check both on screen and then print both.

Let us know how you get on.

John

Graham Russell
12-05-2010, 09:14 PM
I still think the problem is a colour management issue. Humour me here and take an image with the camera set to sRGB and then take the same image with the camera set to Adobe RGB. Check both on screen and then print both.

Let us know how you get on.

John

I would expect the AdobeRGB image to print "flatter" than the sRGB image, if the printer assumes an sRGB image.

Let's wait for the result....

Graham

Alan Warner
12-05-2010, 09:17 PM
I would expect the AdobeRGB image to print "flatter" than the sRGB image, if the printer assumes an sRGB image.

I concur !

Alan

john wright
13-05-2010, 09:44 AM
Strangely enough I agree as well :D

But with the following caveat.

Generally Adobe RGB will display flatter (more subdued or under saturated colours) on screen. However, some colour combinations can print over-saturated. This is dependent upon the printer gamut and the internal colour table. As the majority of printers (that we are using) are expecting sRGB unless you have a calibrated work flow and convert the colour space before printing you are likely to have problems if you use an alternative colour space for processing.

Basically it comes down to the individual colours and how they will be interpreted. As this is happening inconsistently then my thinking is that the images which are affected contain an out of gamut colour combination which is being incorrectly interpreted.

If I am wrong then the relatively simple test I suggested will show this and we can rule the colour space out of the equation. Either way, right or wrong, we will make some progress to resolving this.

Awaiting the result and prepared to accept some bowing at my feet (if I am right) :D

John

Jason Goodlad
13-05-2010, 12:25 PM
All the pictures I have taken since the event have come out fine, regardless of the settings in the camera. I have uninstalled Picasa and reinstalled it. I have printed the same picture of and it is still bad, although as I say, all the new ones that I have taken are ok. Could it be possible that the original pictures in Picasa are somehow corrupted and won't print right whatever I do and that all new pictures could be ok? We have an event on Sunday.

Mike Weeks
13-05-2010, 12:29 PM
Jason could you send me an image by email and then I can have a look at it and see if there is something that can be identified?

Mike

Mark Amies
13-05-2010, 12:49 PM
Just to let you know that I have spoken to Sue ( the OP) yesterday, in an attempt to get to the bottom of the problem she is having.

At this stage I don't believe there is a problem with the printer, we need to see some of the print samples first.

Peter Martin-Turner
13-05-2010, 08:52 PM
All the pictures I have taken since the event have come out fine, regardless of the settings in the camera. I have uninstalled Picasa and reinstalled it. I have printed the same picture of and it is still bad, although as I say, all the new ones that I have taken are ok. Could it be possible that the original pictures in Picasa are somehow corrupted and won't print right whatever I do and that all new pictures could be ok? We have an event on Sunday.


Sue edits to images such as crops, levels, saturation, black and white, sharpening etc within Picasa are made on screen but not made permanent until such time as you save the changes. When you do this Picasa creates a subfolder of the original folder called picasa originals where it stores the original images with the same file name. So you end up with 2 copies of the image, the original and the edited version. Do you have this folder?

Picasa will remember your edits even if you have not saved them. I have seen Picasa corrupt images when there is a power outage or when someone has saved edits on a networked machine that is looking at the shared folder on the source machine. You "almost " invariably have the option to undo all edits but I have seen this fail occasionally. I also occasionally clear the Picasa database completely as this can get very bloated and does seem to impair Picasa perfomance.

My advice FWIW would be to get a very thorough familiarity with Picasa before your next event on Sunday. Use the KISS principle. If your pictures are right in camera, then Picasa has some very useful buttons like I'm feeling Lucky to complete a one click tweak of the image. Use the batch edit functions to process multiple files, it's quick and efficient if you don't overload it by asking it to perform the function on a folder with a 1000 images for example.