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Advice needed , a "What woudl you do" situation [Archive] - Event Photographer Society Forum

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rebecca king
19-04-2010, 09:23 PM
Sooooo,

Printer bought from a supplier

Printer has fault

Send printer back to supplier.

Supplier can not rectify fault.

Printer sent to manufacturer, fault fixed ( Yayyy!! :-)

Printer sent back from manufactuere to supplier.

On route flight case has either been dropped or something heavy dropped on it. Hard enough to damage the flight case :shock:

( I have not seen the damage so don't know how bad it is but imagine its pretty hard to damage a flight case , hence the name :roll: ) To be fair I don't care if the case just looks bad so long as it still functions.

Supplier says "its ok It ran 30 or 40 prints fine"

I say "send it back to manufacturer so it can be thoroughly checked out"

As of today no news , but only been sent last Friday, though I did ring for an update today.

What would be reasonable to expect

a) New printer and flight case

b) Original printer "looked over" by manufacturer and original flight case

c) Original printer with 12 month warranty from manufacturer and original flight case

d) Original printer with 12 month warranty from manufacturer and new flight case.

As the printer was being sent from the manufactuer to the supplier it is between them to claim damages from the courier , I 'm just stuck in the middle with no printer and thus no backup if my other printer decides to break down.

Well after all that

what would you do ????

Thanks in advance.

Mike Weeks
19-04-2010, 09:38 PM
Rebecca,

dare I say none of the above. Potentially there is a claim to made against the courier and that would be for repair/replace of the flight case. There is a big minefield here because it sounds like the contract with the courier will most likely be with the manufactuer who sent the goods with the courier or with the supplier if they booked the courier and it would potentially be they that had to make the claim.

The supplier has obviously carried out an inspection so there is no need for it to go back to the manufacturer and no need for it to be replaced or warranty extended.

Even if this was new goods I think you have to accept a repair under law but there are some circumstances where a new should be supplied i.e. numerous faults.

Whatever happens you need to be satisfied and you may find it beneficial to speak to cab/consumer direct? to see what your rights are.

Mike

Trudy Trafford
19-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Oh dear Rebecca...

Can the supplier not lend you a machine until everything has been checked thoroughly?

I would probably ask for a new flight case, as I would want it to reach me in the condition it was sent back. I would worry that it may have affected the printer, so I would at the very least ask for assurances that it has been inspected and has suffered no damage.

Hope you get it sorted soon

Bob Coyne
19-04-2010, 09:46 PM
a. New printer and new flight case

gary evans
19-04-2010, 09:54 PM
Agree with Bristol Bob.

You bought a new printer that had a fault. Therefore you are entitled to a replacement - not a repair.

The fact that the courier dropped it is irrelevant.

The supplier is trying to fob you off.

Mike Weeks
19-04-2010, 10:03 PM
You bought a new printer that had a fault. Therefore you are entitled to a replacement - not a repair.

Gary,

to the best of my knowledge under consumer law they have a right to attempt to rectify which includes repair, even for new items - I would check with http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/ to get accurate advice though as what is important is that Rebecca gets satisfaction.

Mike

andrew waring
19-04-2010, 10:40 PM
I look at it like this: bought a printer, printer has a fault, you still don't have a printer, are you happy with what you're being fed by supplier? Get refund on printer (presuming it's a brand new one) and buy from a different supplier. If it's not a brand new printer then it changes everything, but if it's brand new then I'd talk to supplier and discuss, if not satisfied get a refund and buy elsewhere.

Duncan Harris
19-04-2010, 11:09 PM
I personally would insist on a new printer, on the basis that if the flight case has been damaged then the printer inside is very likely to be also damaged (print head, circuit board, frame etc) therefore they can't guarantee reliability in the future. I would also insist on a new case, compare it to a crash helmet that once damaged it's strength is compromised. I'm pretty sure that Unless you contracted the courier it's not your problem, the supplier or manufacturer has to make a claim against them for their loss.

Oh and also I would be talking to them about a loss of earnings claim until I had a new printer, that should get them moving !!

(I might have trouble ordering my next printer :D :D )

john wright
20-04-2010, 12:06 AM
Hopefully the original purchase was made by credit card. If it was then this gives you another option which is get your credit card company involved and get them to sort it out.

Assuming you have not dealt with the manufacturer directly then the responsibility for the printer remains with the supplier. The responsibility for the flight case is with the supplier as they used your flight case to ship the printer to the manufacturer. They can argue this until they are blue in the face but they could have used their own case to ship to the manufacturer. They chose to use yours.

I would ask that both be replaced. You should not end up in a worse position (unknown printer reliability and damaged flight case) as a result of their actions. It is possible that the printer will fail again and if there is evidence of physical damage the manufacturer will refuse to repair under warranty. Physical damage may not be obvious when viewing the external casing and may not be easy to spot even with the casing removed. A hairline crack in a PCB is a common fault with dropped equipment. The fault symptoms may not show immediately ie. the unit will appear to work when tested. The fault will appear over time once the PCB has been power cycled in operation and there has been the associated temperature cycling.

A common tactic a few years ago in the computer trade was to try to get the customer to deal directly with the manufacturer. The responsibility then moves to the manufacturer but the manufacturers legal responsibility is to repair the goods. The manufacturer has no responsibility to replace but can do so at their discretion.

My view may be out of date (it is a couple of years since I had to deal with something similar) so if the supplier will not replace both units and if the credit card route is not an option then I would get some professional advice.

Forum advice and views are good to a point but sometimes you want to be absolutely sure of your ground. These are expensive items and I would want to be confident that the action I was pursuing was reasonable and that the supplier was, at a minimum, meeting their obligations.

John

Stuart Morley
20-04-2010, 07:27 AM
Hi Rebecca

There are two answers to your question....

1) What are your legal rights etc

2) What you want and what the supplier is prepared to do for you.

Option 1 - Your legal rights

Firstly it depends how you purchased the equipment.
If you purchased from a trade company (You can tell by checking the terms and conditions) as they say something like....

"Company X is a trade wholesaler. By placing an order with us signifies that you are a trade customer, offering to make a business-to-business purchase, bound by our terms and conditions. We does not make offers of sale to consumers." or "Company X is a business to business supply only company" or other such words.

If this is the case even if your are a consumer then your rights under the sale of goods act are reduced as you are buying as a trade customer.

If you purchased from a retailer as a consumer then you are covered by the full extent of the sale of goods act as this is mainly used to cover consumers. Your rights as a consumer are much more and as such typically the prices are slightly higher because of this.

This is why when I personally buy equipment I pay a little more and buy from a retailer as I have a lot more "cover" if things go wrong.

Recently I purchased a Canon G11 and after a few months it packed up....Had I purchased it through the trade I would have had 30 days in which they would swap it out after which it would go back to Canon and I would have to wait until it was fixed. As I purchased it from Jessops I walked in and they swapped it for a new one within 2 minutes. Well worth the extra few pounds I paid.

Your local trading standards would be best to advise you on this but usually advise people to try to resolve the issue with the supplier first.

Option 2 - Speak with your supplier.

I think (and I need to check) that your supplier is us at System Insight, when I am in the office at lunchtime I will check and advise you of the current situation.

I would imagine the reason you haven't had a call from your supplier yet is simply due to the fact that if it was sent on Friday it wouldn't have arrived until Yesterday at the earliest.

Often your supplier will do their best to look after you and you may find that your legal options are actually less than the supplier will offer you.

I am sure that this will be resolved to your satisfaction as all the trade suppliers on the forum are reputable companies and don't shy away from their responsibilities.

I will advise you later when I have all the facts to hand.

Kind Regards

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)

rebecca king
20-04-2010, 08:00 AM
Wow , thanks for all the replies ,

loads of really great information.

I hand't thought of the credit card angle I will look into that.

My main worry is that, as has been suggested, that there could be some tiny crack or fault that isn't detectable now but could easily cause problems in the future.

It is a new printer, still under 12 months warranty.

I'll get back in touch with the supplier and see how things go , and then see if a call to the relevant consumer rights body might be needed.


Thanks again for all the replies, I often "lurk" here but rarely post ( If I'm honest I don't have anything much I can add to most of the discussions though I have learnt LOADS from reading others posts) but it is comforting that so many people take the time to give such good advice

Duncan Harris
20-04-2010, 08:30 AM
That's interesting Stuart I didn't know your rights were different if you buy from a "trade wholesaler" or a "retailer", makes business sense as the margin made are different. If you were buying privately does the same apply ? I presume "Costco Wholesale UK Ltd" is a wholesaler so that would apply there (if so they don't bother about the legal side as never seems to be a problem returning things to them).

Stuart Morley
20-04-2010, 08:34 AM
Hi Rebecca

Update:

Printer arrived back with us late Thursday. There was a dent on the edge of the top of the flight case which wasn't there when it left us. This happened on it's from from Mitsubishi to us however we will rectify this issue for you.

We tested the printer and it tested ok and there was no physical damage to the printer at all.

We called you to notify you of this and offered you two options

1) Return the printer to you with the flight case and get Mitsubishi to resolve the flight cases issue later (that way you have your printer and case back)

2) Return the printer to Mitsubishi who would do nothing more than we have done but they are more than happy to look at it if you wish.

Mitsubishi advise me....
All they would do is run off some prints, and do a visual inspection (their words) and in their opinion this is not needed but they would do this if required.

As for a crack on the motherboard their advice is this is unlikely unless the printer had suffered a major drop (which from the damage does not look like this has happened). The advice that in the unlikely event of a hairline crack that this would be manifest itself instantly.

I can confirm your warranty is a two year warranty by the way.

I will call you to discuss this.

Kind Regards

Stu

http://www.systeminsight.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stuart Morley
20-04-2010, 08:39 AM
That's interesting Stuart I didn't know your rights were different if you buy from a "trade wholesaler" or a "retailer", makes business sense as the margin made are different. If you were buying privately does the same apply ? I presume "Costco Wholesale UK Ltd" is a wholesaler so that would apply there (if so they don't bother about the legal side as never seems to be a problem returning things to them).

Yes, Not a lot of people do know.....

Until recently www.staples.co.uk (http://www.staples.co.uk) had a disclaimer on their website saying that they were business to business (although this has now changed) despite the fact that they had "back to school" offers and they are situated on a retail park!

There are a growing number of legal issues relating to consumer rights , the latest being that a consumer must be told if a new model is available, whereas a trade customer doesn't have to be told.

So if you go and buy a New Ford Fiesta as a consumer and a new model is due the following month and the salesman doesn't tell you, you have recourse to the supplier as a consumer. You don't have these rights are a trade customer.

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)

john wright
20-04-2010, 10:43 AM
I think it might be worth while clarifying my comment about hairline cracks.

My background is micro electronics design. I specialised, at one time, in the design of Automatic Test Equipment. I was given the opportunity to work in this area as a result of my extensive experience in component level repair of PCBs. I have repaired tens of thousands of complex PCBs including printer PCBs.

Hairline cracks will present themselves in a number of ways. The crack may be visible to the eye or not. Cracks are usually found adjacent to mounting posts or point. They can result from incorrect or uneven pressure on the PCB at installation, over-tightening of securing screws and distortion of the PCB due to physical shock (usually dropping). When dropped the PCB does not flex evenly. The uneven distortion of the PCB under load can cause cracks in areas not immediately associated with the drop contact point. The cracks can range from the obvious to a single track with a crack that is invisible to the eye.

The usual symptoms are:
1. Unit does not work at power on.
2. Unit powers on but has an intermittent fault (usually sensitive to vibration).
3. Unit powers on but fails or is intermittent once at operating temperature.
4. Unit powers on but does not operate correctly but operates correctly once at operating temperature.

I can say with absolute certainty that if the manufacturer states that any faults associated with a drop will always manifest instantly then they are wrong.

In the above we have ignored other damage or stress to mechanical components. These too can be severely distorted at impact and return to their original shape. Visually they will look ok but can also be a point of failure waiting to happen.

I would still be pushing for replacement.

John

Stuart Morley
20-04-2010, 11:18 AM
John,

I am not doubting your ability at all just relaying the information from the manufacturer.

I have seen the damage to the flight case (unlike others) and it was minimal and in my opinion has not been dropped.

I personally would have put up with it myself, although an annoyance HOWEVER I am not prepared for a customer to be inconvenienced in this manner even though Rebecca was good enough not to worry about it.

We often receive equipment (new) from manufacturers with damaged boxes, I am sure they wouldn't all replace working equipment just because a box might be slightly damaged. it might have a problem but I think it is extremely unlikely given the damaged caused and the fact that it is in full working order. However we/they would of course resolve any issues in the future and the situation may be different if the machine was out of warranty but it isn't.

I think rebecca's concerns only come from the posts on here to be honest, someone sows a seed (not intentionally) and one starts to worry.

Having seen Mitsubishi printers that have been dropped where the flight cases have been badly damaged, the printers have still worked (and continued to) this is testament to the durability of the printer.


Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)

john wright
20-04-2010, 11:59 AM
Hi Stu

You do have the benefit of having seen the damage to the flight case. My opinion is based on the premise that it has been dropped and that there is damage consistent with this to the flight case. If this is not the case then the flight case has done its job and probably prevented damage to the printer in transit. You also have the benefit of having seen a number of units that have been damaged and understand (based on your experience) the probability of secondary damage for these units.

Given the above I would probably accept the return of the printer but with the caveat that a loan replacement is provided should it subsequently fail within an agreed period and that all associated delivery/transportation costs were covered.

The flight case itself I would want repaired or replaced. In the past I have repaired cosmetic damage to cases by having them branded with our logo. A small dose of good quality car filler and a self adhesive bit of sign writing can bring new life to a tired case :D

John

gary evans
20-04-2010, 01:21 PM
Am I missing something as I read this ............ Rebecca is expected to keep a case that is only slightly damaged and a printer thats looks to be OK and other models work when dropped, so hers should be OK too?

If this was me I would be speaking to lawyers by now and not putting up with being messed around.

If someone buys a secondhand printer they might expect it to show signs of use, if they drop it themselves then they only have one person to blame - but when you buy something new, you expect it to be pretty well near perfect.

john wright
20-04-2010, 01:39 PM
Hi Gary

If the printer has been dropped then it should be replaced regardless of the performance of similar units that have been dropped. No ifs and no buts about it.

If, as Stu says, it is the flight case that has been damaged but it does not appear to be as a result of a drop then we have a different scenario. Is it reasonable to expect a replacement for the printer when the flight case has been damaged ? In this scenario we are assuming that something has scraped or knocked the case and that the damage is limited to the case.

If it was my printer and case I would want to see some photo's of the damage and make my own mind up whether it had been dropped or not and even if not dropped was the impact sufficient to have potentially damaged the printer as well.

Unless the damage to the case was relatively minor then personally I would still expect replacement of both the printer and case.

John

Stuart Morley
20-04-2010, 03:31 PM
Am I missing something as I read this ............ Rebecca is expected to keep a case that is only slightly damaged and a printer thats looks to be OK and other models work when dropped, so hers should be OK too?

If this was me I would be speaking to lawyers by now and not putting up with being messed around.

Yes you are missing something Gary, I said that she shouldn't have to put up with it and I am sorting it out for her at the moment. She was happy to put up with it, I don't think she should and I will resolve the issue for her.

As for your lawyers they would possible ask "has the supplier refused to sort this out" to which the answer would be NO....We are sorting it out for her.

Her printer is working and the manufacturers consider this as well.

I can't see that she is being messed about and I think (and maybe she will correct me) that Rebecca feels this as well.

Let's not get this out of all proportion

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)

Stuart Morley
20-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Hi Gary

If the printer has been dropped then it should be replaced regardless of the performance of similar units that have been dropped. No ifs and no buts about it.

If, as Stu says, it is the flight case that has been damaged but it does not appear to be as a result of a drop then we have a different scenario. Is it reasonable to expect a replacement for the printer when the flight case has been damaged ? In this scenario we are assuming that something has scraped or knocked the case and that the damage is limited to the case.

If it was my printer and case I would want to see some photo's of the damage and make my own mind up whether it had been dropped or not and even if not dropped was the impact sufficient to have potentially damaged the printer as well.

Unless the damage to the case was relatively minor then personally I would still expect replacement of both the printer and case.

John

I couldn't agree more John, sensible words indeed.

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.ukl (http://www.systeminsight.co.ukl)

rebecca king
20-04-2010, 04:16 PM
In my original post I chose to not identify either the type or printer or supplier by name so as to keep this matter as anonymous as possible on the part of the supplier.

Stu at SI has chosen to reply to my post , he didn't have to , he could have just kept quiet. So thanks to Stu for putting all the facts forward.

Stu rang me this morning and I meant to ring back today , but you know how it goes ;-) the day just ran away with me and now I have to do all the after school stuff etc etc

I in no way find any fault with SI because, at present, this is an ongoing discussion between ourselves, I simply wanted to get a few WWYD opinions. If SI had refused point blank to do anything then that would be different , but that is not the case.


I am sure Stu and I can come to some mutual satisfactory arrangment.

I seem to have ended up with more questions than anwers AARRGGHH :-) :roll:

but really , thanks for all the advice.

rebecca king
23-04-2010, 08:51 AM
Just an update,

I have agreed with Stu at SI to accept the printer back in its original flight case, but the damaged case will be replaced with a new one in the very near furture. For speed I just need the printer back ASAP.

If a fault occurs within the warranty period Stu has agreed for the printer to be returned and reapired free of charge and a replacment loan printer made available (on a one off basis)

I am happy with this as it means I am "covered" if a fault does occur and the flight case is replaced like for like.

Many thanks once again for all your advice, it is really greatly appreciated :-)

RobMarsh
23-04-2010, 11:07 AM
Sounds like a fairly reasonable and amicable solution

Stuart Morley
27-04-2010, 06:56 AM
It's amazing what two people can manage to resolve when a problem occurs, it isn't rocket science just try and solve the problem and put yourself in the shoes of the customer. (Which is why *I* wanted to replace the flight case as this is what I would have wanted)

This is why we subscribe to the "Buy with Confidence" scheme run by local trading standards. If you are inspected and approved by Trading Standards then that says something.

The best part is that the lawyers didn't make any money :-)

Always a pleasure to do business with you Rebecca

Stu

www.systeminsight.co.uk (http://www.systeminsight.co.uk)