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Thinking of moving to DNP [Archive] - Event Photographer Society Forum

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Paul Rogers
18-12-2009, 11:51 AM
We currently have all Mitsubishi printers including 9550's, 9800's and a 3020.

Recently saw a DNP 40 owned by another photographer; I will need to replace some of the printers next year and am seriously consider a switch.

I was extremely impressed with the image quality, speed and quietness of the machine. Does anyone have any experience, and an unbiased opinion of both Mitsubishi and DNP printers, and can give me some guidance please? I think reliability, warranty etc.

Many thanks
Paul

Mike Weeks
18-12-2009, 01:25 PM
Paul,

I moved from the Olmec as my main printer to using the DS40 & DS80 about 4 or 5 months ago. I previously had the 9550 which the Olmec was far superior to. Speed etc. I would have likened the Olmec to the 9800. The Olmec is now my backup machine.

Having used a 3800 there is a definite family resemblence. So if you have seen one of those you will know the heritage.

What do I like about the DNP machines? Speed is good, colour reproduction is the best I have had out of the box. These are quiet printers when compared to 9550/9800 (and other roll feds) and that is something you come to appreciate, they are obviously only two thirds of the weight and the media is just about the cheapest you can get. Print does not leave the machine until fully printed. The guy that normally does my printing is extremely impressed.

3020 is not in the same game and neither is the 9550 whereas the 9810 may offer some other facilities. What was interesting for me was speaking to Illyan the technical guy who tried to wreck the machines when learning about their repair. When I say wreck I mean tried all the normal sorts of faults he comes across caused by users and the machine is more in control of errors than any other machine he has played with.

If you had to buy one machine on the current market this should be at the top of the list for people to look at.

Mike

Alan Warner
19-12-2009, 11:25 AM
Weight !
Weight !
Weight !

Ouch my poor back dam those 9800's...

Why is the DS80 quite so much more expensive than the DS40 ?

Al007

Mike Weeks
19-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Why is the DS80 quite so much more expensive than the DS40 ?

Al007

There again it is much cheaper than its half brother the 3800 and I can see no difference in quality from the prints.

Mike

Alan Warner
19-12-2009, 01:13 PM
Well i just have to ask myself

Ok Pricing is comparable to similar 9x6/8x6 printers from other companies,

The Case, PSU, Drive Mechanism & internal chips are I guess the same as the DS80, Ok maybee a bit more memory maybe/maybe not to handle the larger file sizes (max cost £5)

so does the Thermal Head cost an additional £460+ vat ?

I very much doubt it !

Al007

Mike Weeks
19-12-2009, 01:34 PM
Alan,

the head will have increased from 6" to 8" and one of the things with such technology is that the price will not increase in a linear fashion along with the size of the parts. Second point is that there will be many more DS40s produced than DS80s and therefore the economy of scale will be different.

There is only one competitor for the DS80 (£1,610.00 inc VAT) and that is the CP3800 (£1,719.25 inc VAT) so maybe the question should be why are this family of machines at this price? Commercially it would make no financial sense for Photomart (or any other outlet in this situation) to make the price gap any greater - what you really need is for Mitsubishi to bring their price down but again the first 2 arguments come in to play.

Mike

Alan Warner
19-12-2009, 02:02 PM
But In this case its the 6"head that had to be made as the 8" head was always in production prior to the 6",

maybe there is some kind of licence agreement payable on the DS80/3800 but not on the DS40

but there is still no logical reason for such a massive price difference,

other than a marketing one...

Not knocking the Printers, to be honest i would welcome the weight/space saving over the 9800's, just cannot comprehend that the tooling for the 8'' printer costs £460+vat more that the 6"

Al007

andrew waring
19-12-2009, 02:46 PM
Alan,
is that not the same as us charging £15-£20 for a 12x8 print and £10 for a 9x6 print, but it only costs us an extra 50 pence in media. At the end of the day they're a business, here to make money and not to do us favours. The fact that they charge 50% more for an 8" printer is the same as us charging 50% more for a larger print. To be honest, even if they brought the price of the 8" printer down by £460 then I'd still be charging more for a 12x8 or 10x8. I guess if people will pay it then people will sell it to you.

Alan Warner
19-12-2009, 03:50 PM
Andrew,

I still see it as an insult to Us photographers intelligence's expecting us to swallow the fact that it is nearly 50% more expensive to produce a product that is by enlarge already being produced, and a pricing decision based not on product costs but on marketing positioning.

Again not putting down the DS80 or the image quality just the Price Difference justification seems a little unjust compared to its sibling !

Again the main reason i considered this printer was weight !


Al007

andrew waring
20-12-2009, 01:55 AM
I do agree with you Alan, but Dye Sub printers seem to be a pretty closed market, with very few suppliers and a decent enough demand they can all charge whatever they can. I see your point and agree though.

Mark Amies
20-12-2009, 04:57 PM
Just seen this.

I haven't got my work head on right now- however, could you imaging the uproar there would be if DNP took the price of the DS80 down to the levels you are suggesting Alan?

There is other considerations here, and that is down to the sales figures of the machines . I would imagine far more DS40's are produced than 80's- remember that the DS40 will be going into retail photo kiosk solutions around the world. I think economies of scale do have their part in here, as well as corporate politics.

Of course the people to ask are the manufacturers - and I am sure the opportunity will arise at Focus on Imaging in March.


The DNP rep is going to love me!! :roll:

Alan Warner
20-12-2009, 05:13 PM
Hi Mark,

Are the DS40 internals apart from a smaller transport/thermal imager the same as the hardware internals of the DS80/CP3800 variants ? (justify £460+vat difference)

If so are world wide sales of the DS40 greater than the combined sales of the DS80/CP3800/Citizen variant ?

If not then the limited production of the DS40 would be dearer to produce than its sibling, and not the other way round ? (is the additional production cost justification of the £460+vat difference between DS40 & DS80)

I'm only asking the obvious and not pointing fingers at suppliers just at the pricing & positioning of an excellent product in the market place !

Al007

Paul Rogers
20-12-2009, 10:14 PM
One other thing we discovered the other night is that you can print 6x4 and 9x6 without changing the media.

Mark Amies
21-12-2009, 09:22 AM
I can't say more than I have already. Obviously DNP have to have a machine that fits into the 10x8 market ,and it has to go in against competition which is in a similar price range.

Paul, yes you can produce 2 6x8's from a piece of 12x8 media ( or of course two 6x8's), and you can do this on a CP3800.

chris hoskins
21-12-2009, 12:08 PM
One other thing we discovered the other night is that you can print 6x4 and 9x6 without changing the media.
Hi Paul - interested as to how you managed this? :) Doesn't seem to quite add up? Two 6X4's should add up to a 12x8? Or am I missing something :)

Graham Gott
21-12-2009, 01:44 PM
Two 6X4's should add up to a 12x8? Or am I missing something :)
You should be able to get 4 6x4s on a 12x8 (depending on the software you're using). Remember, you're doubling both dimensions.

Paul Rogers
21-12-2009, 01:59 PM
It was on the 40. Appareny It is in print settings and prints and crops to 6x4.

Trudy Trafford
21-12-2009, 02:05 PM
Yes on the DS40, there is a drop down menu which allows you to print 5x3.5, 5x7, 6x4, 6x4x2, 6x8 & 6x9.

Graham Russell
21-12-2009, 02:11 PM
Is the DNP40 a rebadge Citizen like the DNP80?

Graham

Mark Amies
21-12-2009, 02:16 PM
I would steer clear of terms like 'rebadging' - mainly as I don't believe the machine is available as a Citizen - certainly not in the UK anyway.

The DNP machines are made under contract for DNP by Citizen to their requirements.

Paul Rogers
21-12-2009, 03:01 PM
There seems to be plenty of pluses associated with turning to DNP but I have always had Mitsubishi machines and they have never let me down. So just wonder if it's better the devil you know.

Mark Amies
21-12-2009, 03:14 PM
If the theory is based around reliability, then there is no reason why any make of machine should any less or any more reliable than Mitsubishi Paul.

I have often had this conversation - if a dye sub is fighting in this market, then it will aslo be fighting in the photokiosk market - which is the bigger market. To do so , then it needs to be reliable.

Jeremy Nako
21-12-2009, 03:27 PM
Well I won't add to this discussion as you know where my allegiances lie, but on a purely practical note, having two sets of incompatible media means more stock holding and more agro.

You'll always need more of the one you haven't got - sods law.

Trudy Trafford
21-12-2009, 03:48 PM
I have both Mitsi & DNP's, when I need another, will definitely get more DNP's.

Gareth Cooper
27-05-2010, 07:04 PM
I think everyone wants a slice of the photographer's purse these days. Canon, Nikon, who ever....they all seem to be bleeding us for what ever we'll pay.

john christopher
08-06-2010, 03:11 PM
Paul

There is a 3rd option. A Mits 9800 which you already have (ie: the devil you know) and a DNP DS80 or Mits 3800 for large format printing. Nothing wrong with having the best of both worlds.

Mark Amies
08-06-2010, 03:15 PM
John

That will be the CP9810DW now, 9800 is no longer available, but I think Paul ( Rogers) is all tooled up now, so to speak.

Mark

john christopher
08-06-2010, 03:19 PM
So Paul

What are you NOW tooled up with, pray tell?

Mark

Do you mean the CP9810DW?

Mark Amies
08-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Thats what I said man. ;-)

Bryan Osborne
08-06-2010, 04:42 PM
This arguement is not new we had it in the late 1990's when Mitsu Produced A4 and A3 Dye Subs. Mike's arguements on scale of production and sales is the valid one. Remember if Mitsubishi and DNP DO NOT produce the media themselves then they have to buy it in and make a margin on this. This income is directly proportional to the units sold so they make a prediction, a BUDGET for the world maket for say 2011 and the predict the income on media and then look at the net return per unit sold. It's as simple as that and a situation entirely dependent on demand.

I will preedict that the market will split into two, the general event will stick to 6x8 and 6tx9 but the corporate, Ball, Prom and pre-paid event markets will settle on 8x10 and 8x12 very quickly.

Bryan Osborne
08-06-2010, 04:44 PM
Can we move this thread to a Members Private area if it is to develop???

john christopher
08-06-2010, 11:20 PM
Agree! Too many eyes......

Mike Weeks
09-06-2010, 07:42 AM
There is nothing in this thread that I can see that would warrant it be moved to a private area. If anybody wants to further change direction of the thread then it is probably best to start a new thread in an area that they think is appropiate.

Mike

Simon Wilson
09-06-2010, 03:16 PM
Mike, Any post relating to, or containing pricing, profit margins or costings,Should in my opinion, be in the Private area.


Simon Wilson

Mike Weeks
09-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Mike, Any post relating to, or containing pricing, profit margins or costings,Should in my opinion, be in the Private area.


Simon Wilson

I quite agree however I cant see where such info is contained in this thread - machine pricing is something that already exists in the public domain.

Mike